tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6650770985225450559.post6770310624897881328..comments2024-03-28T03:31:19.790-07:00Comments on Archduke Piccolo: Space Marine - trade mark, or literary trope?Archduke Piccolohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15533325665451889661noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6650770985225450559.post-86079175867695111402013-02-23T14:42:39.781-08:002013-02-23T14:42:39.781-08:00You would have thought the Nobel Peace Prize award...You would have thought the Nobel Peace Prize award would have told him something, eh? But I now hear that the French President is up for the Prize. I'm wondering if the Nobel Prize Panel (whatever it is called) is aware of what's going on in West Africa. Maybe they do.<br /><br />I'm wondering if we are beginning to see a pattern here. George Orwell was on the money, eh?Archduke Piccolohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15533325665451889661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6650770985225450559.post-61443763443072705842013-02-23T14:37:55.769-08:002013-02-23T14:37:55.769-08:00Yes. The way things are going you will see mother...Yes. The way things are going you will see mothers frightening their kids into submissiveness - much the same way is they used to do with 'Boney will get you!' - by 'If you don't go to sleep RIGHT NOW, the drones will come along...' <br /><br />I don't believe, you know, that Barak Obama ever quite appreciated at the beginning of his tenure of the Presidency just what a wealth of goodwill the world had for him, and by extension he had brought for the USA as a whole. It was astonishing at the time, and I shared this feeling (though not unalloyed with a faint sense of unease). Well, most of that has gone, hasn't it? <br /><br />The pity of it, Iago...Archduke Piccolohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15533325665451889661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6650770985225450559.post-74955952079832655992013-02-23T01:31:23.634-08:002013-02-23T01:31:23.634-08:00Thanks for your remarks, Michael.
I know Gary Gyg...Thanks for your remarks, Michael.<br /><br />I know Gary Gygax had at least one run-in with the Tolkien Estate. All he had to do was ask permission, and he might have got away with a simple acknowledgement of the source, and no royalty payments. After all, that acknowledgement alone would have benefited the Tolkien estate (publicity for the books and whatever associated merchandising), and benefited the TSR Company as well. <br /><br />My comment in re GW's legal position (Legal Page 4) reminded me somewhat of TSR Games attitude to modifications and local adaptations to the D&D game. I may do a posting on that, depending if I find anything significant to say about it. I just need to check.Archduke Piccolohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15533325665451889661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6650770985225450559.post-7170919539632103842013-02-23T01:29:51.375-08:002013-02-23T01:29:51.375-08:00I'm afraid I'm with the rebel Jack Cade (S... I'm afraid I'm with the rebel Jack Cade (Shakespear ) "Fiirst Kill all the lawyers" .<br /> We live in a world of bullies- it has always been such . Military power and money- in differing proprotions depending upon the age - is all that has ever counted...<br /> Nevertheless<br /> The Resitance Lives On ...<br /> Are you l;istening Dave or Barak... Big Andyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17235478427317774609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6650770985225450559.post-54480775595855805382013-02-23T01:24:22.412-08:002013-02-23T01:24:22.412-08:00I reckon. Equality before the law is pretty much ...I reckon. Equality before the law is pretty much mythical now - dishonoured more in the breach than honoured in the observance. It reminds me also forms of poker that don't have the 'all-in' rule. All the guy with the biggest pile has to do to win the pot is bet one dollar more than anyone can match. Doesn't matter a hoot in a hurricane what he's holding. The others can't stay in the game, so they fold.Archduke Piccolohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15533325665451889661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6650770985225450559.post-48778723795715528422013-02-23T01:19:18.626-08:002013-02-23T01:19:18.626-08:00Bishop Cadbury might be chaplain to the Ultramarin... Bishop Cadbury might be chaplain to the Ultramarines - if ultramarine is farther enough removed from the 'Cadbury' purple.Archduke Piccolohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15533325665451889661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6650770985225450559.post-1469018350836331642013-02-23T01:17:01.547-08:002013-02-23T01:17:01.547-08:00Well, the Church of England (I believe) has appeal...Well, the Church of England (I believe) has appealed to Cadbury's better nature, on the assumption that Cadbury has one. But that was in the particular issue of the small choc-making outfit. In the end they had to switch to a scarlet coloured packaging, so I don't think Cadbury's better nature was touched...Archduke Piccolohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15533325665451889661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6650770985225450559.post-72540725457951744722013-02-23T01:13:40.013-08:002013-02-23T01:13:40.013-08:00Interesting point, though we might be entering the...Interesting point, though we might be entering the realms of patents. Much of what I've said in re trademarks is as applicable in the whole area of copyright and patents as well. Don't get me started on that!Archduke Piccolohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15533325665451889661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6650770985225450559.post-71913824067816734122013-02-23T01:11:40.181-08:002013-02-23T01:11:40.181-08:00You would think that if everyone got a fair suck o...You would think that if everyone got a fair suck of the sav then that's exactly how it would work. Your pals the Ferrari Company seem to be playing it by the book, and keeping to the terms of their copyright. Not everyone would.Archduke Piccolohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15533325665451889661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6650770985225450559.post-19393597803077332482013-02-22T15:40:04.019-08:002013-02-22T15:40:04.019-08:00Your point about 'trademarking' a particul...Your point about 'trademarking' a particular colour/shade/hue, in the context of a particular product sounds on the face of it reasonable. It is may well be that when Cadbury presented its case for trademarking its distinctive colour, it argued precisely that. If so, the judge, or whoever presides over thse sorts of hearings, bought it.<br /><br />If so, and if the details of that ruling was available to someone challenging Cadbury over a claim in respect of a slightly different shade or the colour - or the same shade, withal, but a different product - then the challenger might well win.<br /><br />But they might not, too, even if they had the money to take up the challenge. The point about ordinary consumers' not being over-concerned about fine variations of colour, quality concerns, misleading associations and what not might well prevail.<br /><br />In a way the battle has already been fought. The Nestle Company challenged Cadbury's right to trademark a colour at all. Whether they added any other argument in respect of where such a ruling might lead, I don't know, but they surely ought to have done. Nestle lost the argument.<br /><br />TSR Games, with which GW was closely associated in the latter's early days certainly did get taken to task over its theft of Tolkien's coinages, 'Balrog' being another.<br /><br />Archduke Piccolohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15533325665451889661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6650770985225450559.post-38623581709547227122013-02-22T15:17:18.801-08:002013-02-22T15:17:18.801-08:00'Vacuum Rangers' - I like it.
Mind you,...'Vacuum Rangers' - I like it. <br /><br />Mind you, part of the 'defence' of copyright or trade mark is use and continued use of it in respect of a product or service. Quite what that means I'm not altogether certain. If Robert Heinlein's books are being reprinted, does that constitute 'continued use'? LotR books certainly are; and it is pretty certain the Peter Jackson or Warner Bros made sure they got permission from the Tolkien Estate for the filming. (An aside: Tolkien emphatically did not want Disney to handle it. My own view on this is that he might have been doing Disney an injustice, there.)<br /><br />Still, we can expand on this:<br />Special Astral Service (SAS)- A United Korporations outfit)<br />Ethereal Grenadiers<br />Space Commandos (and variations thereof)<br />Special Ethereal Assault Legion (SEAL)<br />1st Spacial Forces Operations Detachment - Delta Quadrant <br />2nd Spacial Forces Operations Detachment - Gamma Quadrant<br />3rd Spacial Forces Operations Detachment - Beta Quadrant<br />4th Spacial Forces Operations Detachment - Alpha Quadrant<br />United Stars Astral Special Forces (Green Helmets)<br />Mars Operations Command (MARSOC)<br />IMI-6 - Interstellar Military Intelligence Dept 6.<br /><br />Have fun!<br /><br /><br />Archduke Piccolohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15533325665451889661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6650770985225450559.post-61099995593552318142013-02-22T15:16:00.144-08:002013-02-22T15:16:00.144-08:00Well-argued posts on this subject, and I agree (wi...Well-argued posts on this subject, and I agree (with your last line especially! well, the inmates with money anyway.). There does need to be some protection for copyrights and trademarks and "intellectual properties", but justice requires balance. There is no justice in being able to bully others into submission just because one has money or power or other resources. This is one example of the kind of thing that garners GW the epithet of "Evil Empire".<br /><br />I tend to think actual words, colors, etc., that exist independently in the wider world should not be copyrightable/trademark-able. There should be a tighter threshold in those cases. So, ok, a particular shade of purple could be trademark-able for a particular "realm" (in this case chocolate or even candy); or GW's particular version of space marines. Coined words, such as hobbit, would seem fairer game for trademarking or copyrighting as the case may be. Halfling, probably not so much, nor space marines as depicted by the aforementioned sci-fi authors, even if they had been written more recently rather than pre-GW.Fitz-Badgerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15510866929782142007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6650770985225450559.post-37898332622721071092013-02-22T13:36:24.587-08:002013-02-22T13:36:24.587-08:00Great post. I agree that all of this legal posturi...Great post. I agree that all of this legal posturing is a bluff to try and hold others hostage. Which reminds me, I better trademark Vacuum Rangers immediately.Seanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15428727065347379281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6650770985225450559.post-40490201572400085692013-02-22T13:05:48.738-08:002013-02-22T13:05:48.738-08:00Very trenchant and intelligent comment, Ion, as us...Very trenchant and intelligent comment, Ion, as usual. All this debate has got me thinking about the history of the Tolkien estate's attempts to secure its copyright over the years. Gary Gygax was able to publish the game that became D&D in the 1970s with liberal borrowing from the LOTR books, as well as similarly liberal borrowings from other writers such as Fritz Leiber and Robert Howard. I think the only legal challenge from the Tolkien estate came over Gygax's use of the word "Hobbit", which became "Halfling" in the TSR publications. See http://grognardia.blogspot.ca/2010/01/gygax-on-tolkien-again.html In the miniatures wargaming world there were also borrowings and draftings. Minifigs came out with a line of Tokien inspired figures in the mid 1970s but they were named generically enough as to evade copyright infringement. In the print world there was the illegal publication of the LOTR books in the US by Ace, with an official series subsequently appearing from Ballantine.<br />I'm not quite sure where I am going with this, except to say that this is not the first time the gaming and publishing industries have debated the issue of intellectual property. It would be interesting to do a survey and see if people felt that the Tolkien Estate and Games Workshops have the same right of ownership to words associated with their respective oeuvres. Obviously there are differences. Tolkien invented the word "hobbit" whereas, as you and others have noted, GW did not invent the words "space marine". My suspicion is that more gamers feel more affection for the Tolkien Estate than they do for GW, and might thus concede them greater rights of ownership. My other thought is that we're Gygax alive and trying to sell D&D today, the lawyers would stop him cold. In retrospect, the 1970s seem a more innocent time.Mad Padrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00410143683610813671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6650770985225450559.post-72090724975951691842013-02-22T07:43:14.428-08:002013-02-22T07:43:14.428-08:00The thing I dislike about much of the legal system...The thing I dislike about much of the legal system is that - whilst professing equality before the law &c. - it effectively favours either the filthy rich, who can use their wealth to fight their corner, or the legally-aided, who can use my taxes to do so, when I dare not risk my savings, house &c. A rich bullies' charter.<br /><br />As commented above, those with financial backing but not a good case in law can bluff the impecunious into 'folding' just like in poker - "I'll see your Crown Court verdict, raise a QC and Court of Appeal.." "Too rich for me, I'm out."<br /><br />Why is English Law often - apparently - so unclear that two equally qualified 'experts' can give completely opposite advice? And why draft legislation with terms like 'reasonable', whose meaning in specific circumstances can only be determined by going to court, at enormous expense? ...To create work for lawyers, of course! And guess who are preferential creditors in bankruptcy cases?<br /><br />Almost makes one long for the days of duelling, when only a pistol - and some courage - was required... arthur1815https://www.blogger.com/profile/12333670394529977263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6650770985225450559.post-50891339349345770632013-02-22T07:23:55.492-08:002013-02-22T07:23:55.492-08:00 So a Bishop Cadbury- Head chaplain to the Space ... So a Bishop Cadbury- Head chaplain to the Space Marines is totally out of court then!!1 Big Andyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17235478427317774609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6650770985225450559.post-21498243285981964702013-02-22T05:12:34.630-08:002013-02-22T05:12:34.630-08:00Interesting. Will Cadbury sue the entire body of t...Interesting. Will Cadbury sue the entire body of the Western Christia Church, many of which use purple for their Advent and Lenten vestments and paraments? (that the decorations that change with the church seasons.) May as well copyright "blue" and sue the sky.<br />Could I use "Special Naval Landing Force" for my troopers? No panache there, but it's very exacting.<br />Maybe GW will sue the Royal Marines and the USMC for copyright infringement. Wouldn't THAT make for some interesting late night "visits"!Grenzer Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07294380876807418037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6650770985225450559.post-51716305113354029062013-02-22T04:51:05.031-08:002013-02-22T04:51:05.031-08:00I would think that Cadbury would only be able to t...I would think that Cadbury would only be able to trademark the chemical components that make up the dye, not the color itself.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03436658698932425918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6650770985225450559.post-75161772705369813152013-02-22T02:51:17.487-08:002013-02-22T02:51:17.487-08:00Cadbury can say all they want about purple I am co...Cadbury can say all they want about purple I am colour blind and I can argue that the colour I thought I was using was blue... would anyone care if I said that? seriously though trademarking a colour one which is very hard to make out if your colour blind sure red yes Ferrari red is an Iconic colour but Ferrari does not go around enforcing all car companies not to use the colour red, just their red.<br /><br />in the same way GW should only go around beating up people who try to sell a SIMILAR product that uses the name Space Marine if its a different scale and totally different in setting, background story and the like then they should leave the poor souls alone.<br /><br />as for colour blindness... this is why I restrain from using purple, especially if I have to mix it a nice uniform army would be anything but if I had to constantly mix shades of purple.Daisy Gowan Ditchburnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07476802587483833107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6650770985225450559.post-42785709535128468352013-02-22T00:21:30.144-08:002013-02-22T00:21:30.144-08:00Thanks for the encouraging feedback, Bob. It is a...Thanks for the encouraging feedback, Bob. It is a complex issue, not helped by rather loose legislation worldwide, by the look. There are protections for the small fry like us, but, man, they are not very accessible.Archduke Piccolohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15533325665451889661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6650770985225450559.post-10119963739678102932013-02-22T00:03:53.445-08:002013-02-22T00:03:53.445-08:00Archduke Piccolo,
I have been following this news...Archduke Piccolo,<br /><br />I have been following this news on a variety of different blogs and websites (including the BBC) and yours is the best coverage I have yet read. Thank you for making a case for the PROPER and APPROPRIATE use of copyright, trademarking, and IP rights ... and for showing why it should NOT be used to bully innocent people.<br /><br />All the best,<br /><br />BobRobert (Bob) Corderyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13109130990434792266noreply@blogger.com